Friday, October 03, 2008

Lissa says...

That I don't write enough and so to appease her while at the same time causing her blood pressure to are my thoughts on the debat last night.
While that might sum it up nicely it doesn't really explain the reason I didn't like either debate.

The number one reason I dislike debates like these and polotics in general is that everything that comesout of their mouth seems to be out and out wrong or such a gross distortion of the facts that it ailienates me on both parties.

I love Statistics but also realise that you can make them say anything you want. Unless your willing to double check all the math and facts used in the end statment chances are you are listening to the largest chunk of drivel created.

For example:
Palin's assertion that Obama voted "94 times to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction".
That sounds like he is a total dog, but when you look it up you find this out:
23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.

Biden complained that under Bush, economic policies were passed that led to "excessive deregulation."

He FREAKING VOTED FOR IT. ( in 1999- which was under President CLINTON)

Biden claims that McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

McCain actually supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't just give it to any one industry.

Palinhas claimed that the United States has reduced the number of troops in Iraq from where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.

Only if your counting backward! fact checking says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, roughly 17,000 more than there were BEFORE 2007.

Exactly how am I supposed to want to vote for people who try and grossly mislead me? It's lying for their own profit anyway you look at it and does not instill my confidence in their leadership qualities.


Liz said...

Well, at least he's not a baby killer. I didnt see too many of the gross lies Obama and Biden spew forth presented here just as equally as you're saying McCain and Pallin do, let's be honest here- they all SUCK. We are just responsible for picking the least sucky party. For me that is the ones who don't shed innocent blod in the worst possible way. I'm going to start walking around with a T-shirt of aborted babies on it so people can remember just how truly heinous, disgusting, and unholy it is. I am quite disappointed with our Republican Candidate, but how I feel towards baby-killer Barry Obama is a much different feeling- one of repulsive disgust. I truly do not undertand how anyone can defend that man, his background of shadiness, or his absolute lack of meaningful morals or proven ability to lead anything other than a 'smooth' discussion. The only thing you can know for certain from this man is that he votes in the EXTREME to break God's greatest commandment- is it really that hard to find at least one reason not to vote him into office to lead our country knowing this about him- there is no argument that can justify otherwise. On an even sadder note, after today;s very lackluster debate it appears he will very likely be president (not by the help of my vote mind you) and we will see coming up very soon that he is made of the very same stuff as Bad Billy Clinton- unholy lies and bullsh_t to the nth degree...mark my words, it will come back to haunt us all. The change he proposes is much different than what he describes it as being now.

On a happier note- have you happened to watch any of the ball games as of late- Mark's excited for the series.

Liz said...

whoops, my bad, you did represent both parties equally- I kept thinking Pallin when you wrote Biden. My mind is in the gutter these days with the political hoopla. Let's just get it over with and doom ourselves to another disappointing 4-8 years already!

Terra said...

You are so right. This crap always wrecks my birthday every four years =)

abby232000 said...
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Liz said...

Unfortunately the current definition of pro-choice doesn't include the CHOICE of the unborn baby- just that of the woman who made extremely poor decisions and has decided to take it a step further and murder an innocent child for convenience sake. I'd rather pro-choice be defined to include the following CHOICES: Abstinence unless you're looking to procreate (can I get a big DUH here?), prophylactic (condoms, IUD, shots, you name it - it's been created to avoid such issues as this entirely), choosing to have the baby and give it to a family who actually will care about it and love it unconditionally. See- there are lots of choices and the free agency to make the right one.
If you vote to allow abortion you may as well be doing it yourself on a certain level- you're allowing murder to occur- nay, voting for it. Obama is as left as you can get on this issue- EXTREME. God will not back up such a man as this nor provide inspiration to him to lead the greatest nation on earth - why would HE when HE has put us here for the very reasons of proving ourselves worthy to return to him- take away that chance for a baby and you're taking a step back? That is merely the point I was trying to express. Sorry, I can't help but get offended (and probably offend those who choose to see abortion only in terms of selfishness on the part of the mother - b/c let's face it- the gray times when a woman really needs it due to extreme health conditions or some heinous act being perpetrated against them are extremely few and far between- the majority are for selfish convenience), when it comes to murdering - babies especially. God gave us free agency to use it well or endure the consequences or our actions one day. These babies who were salted, torn apart, put into formaldehyde, all without anesthetia b/c to give them any type of pain medicine would be to say they were living creatures who'd experience severe discomfort from being brutally mutilated and murdered (what a nice final touch!)- will one day have the opportunity to meet the person face to face who did it to them. Where else would they get their say or choice in the matter? It is not anger or hate from my vantage point, it is severe disgust to the nth degree. Man, I really wish I could put some controls over abortion- you have to prove you need it based on severe health reasons to get it. Why would anyone do it given the resources and amazing families out there who are desperate to have one? It just doesn't make any sense- especially considering most abortions occur between married couples. it is sick, disgusting, heinous, and completely wrong. It's murder of the worst kind, but yes, you do still get to keep your free agency and do it if that is what YOU choose.

abby232000 said...
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abby232000 said...
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Liz said...

If you call being irrational being on the side of life than too bad there aren't more irratiional people out there. Ironically I share your view...only about you. Compassion is for the weak and defenseless- that is a child who gets no say- who only gets to suffer being murdered. I cannot fathom how that can be justified, but whatever. Society has become so depraved in major ways that I don't expect my compassion for life to be followed by self-centeredness. You're right, there's no point in arguing an issue that should have never been an issue to begin with. I'm interested in the fact that you question my facts- where in the world are you obtaining yours from??? I am not holier than thou and never ever claimed to be, by the way, I'm just right about murdering being evil- it's an actual commandment- do you need a reference for those as well? If it is a 'lifestyle choice' not to kill and seems intolerant to want created life to survive, then that says something really sad about your thinking. Justification cannot follow such an unholy act, sorry.

abby232000 said...
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Liz said...

lame - I'll focus on trying to make the world a better place slowly while you do.... well, whatever it is that you do.

abby232000 said...
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Liz said...

Well, I had another response all thought up before I wrote it then I read yours again. You're actually right- I have gone about talking about this issue with emotions raging rather than rationality. I have been going at this in a way that would turn you from wanting to listen and discuss and provide valid feedback (I guess all of those years fighting with my brothers in an attempt to actively provoke them has left me with some not-so-handy skills of expression). I let my emotions get the best of me and the horrifyingly ugly issue that this is has in turn elicited an ugly response from me. With issues like this it is hard not to express outward disgust in return- but that doesn't come out so well does it in the big picture?
Your point is taken, I apologize for unjustly eliciting anger from you in return.
To clear the air a bit though, I do not mean to present myself as perfect in order to be able to combat issues. If we waited until we were all perfect before doing anything or speaking out against an injustice...well, we'd all be waiting a long time. I am angry at the politicians who use this for election and to get backed by the heavy hitters like NARAL and P.P. I am angry at these heavy hitters for setting up shop to encourage abortions to occur when the woman is in a frazzled state of mind as it is. Have you read the articles about women who feel they were convinced the best way was abortion only to later realize the horror of it and they live every day unable to forgive themselves for what they did. People who prey on the weak (how much money do abortionists make again for performing abortions? oh yeah, gazillions) in the worst way. I don't know many people who are actively engaged in causes they believe in, so in turn the people who obtain gain out of being otherwise get to rule. Popular society makes light of abortion which in turn leads women to think lightly of it until faced (unfortunately too late) with the reality of it and can't handle what they did. Obama has promised NARAL (in return for their heavy influcence and votes) that the FIRST thing he will do when he takes office is put their bill first- which states minors will not have to counsel with their parents before aborting a baby, our tax dollars in every state will be used to fund abortions whether we're morally opposed to it out of our free agency or not, physicians and nurses could lose their jobs for refusing to perform abortions, and a person doesn't even have to be a physician to even perform them as it reads. Lots of real ugliness there. That coupled with Obama's belief that you should let a baby die if it was accidentally born alive after a botched abortion. To him a baby is not a human unless it is wanted by its parents- it's just a body part that can be discarded at will- no sentiment attached.

Though I have expressed myself poorly in many ways, how can anyone back this man or this horrific act? I do not intend to get an abortion, I will not vote for Obama, but I WILL do my best to be actively engaged in eradicating this issue. It is not passing judgment to carry out God's will for His children (to come to this Earth and live). If it weren't for being actively engaged in a just cause the issues of today would be non-existent because no one would believe in anything or stand for anything enough to make it happen. Pro-choicers pass judgment on those who do not believe as they do in that they claim pro-lifers are depriving the woman of her rights when in fact we are opting to include the rights of both parties involved- the woman AND the child. Where is the justice for the child? It just makes no kind of sense to me. I am so glad I was born and came to a decent family. I cannot sleep at night (ask my husband) after seeing the mutilated bodies of aborted babies and knowing what they could have been - seeing my own son grow and develop and happiness and love just spews from him. How could anyone think killing that innocence is a just or good decision despite the circumstances around them? I apologize that my disgust with that has brought out bad verbal expressions from me, but I will continue to fight this issue. It is murder pure and simple and demands justification. Though God gives us free agency and tells us not to judge one another- He also gave us commandments not to kill and to obey the laws of the land to uphold society. If we are required to uphold the laws of the land, how could we do less for the laws of God? We do not let serial murderers roam free for fear of judging them for their crime- so while we should not judge unrighteously, we are required to take action against the ills of society. We will be held accountable for not doing enough as much as we will for active sinning. I will make more of an attempt to turn my disgust towards this unholy act and its perpetrators into meaningful and more thought out verbal interactions and actions - without the adult conversation and give and take I once had on a daily basis I guess my brain has turned a little mushy with give and take in the real world. The judgment I do leave to God, but He leaves it in our hands to do away with the sins of society- just as we do away with criminals who threaten life and take away our free agency. Fight against it as we do though, we know we are in the end of times- I suppose there's not much I can do to stop that, but I won't sit by passively as babies are murdered daily in the meantime. It is up to us to make a difference in life to leave the world a better place then we find it- whatever happened to that mantra? I don't see many people today doing something to make the world a better place, so I won't beat myself up for expressing my beliefs poorly I'll just continue to work on myself as well as the world I suppose. Every day I start over and am more determined to try to be a better person for the sake of my child and family.

abby232000 said...
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Liz said...

Thanks for recommending a community outreach program. I've been discussing options with Mark for getting active around the baby's schedule - we'll see.

From a pro-life stance both the life of the mother and baby are taken into consideration. You can ask just about any pro-lifer (myself included) and they will allow that there is justification for abortion in select circumstances- so I do realize there is not black and white but a lot of gray and lines drawn around this issue. But given the population as a whole- there is an overload of abortion occurring that cannot be justified in terms of critical health or rape or incest. It cannot be justified occurring in America period.

In your position seeing it up close and personal what the women go through would certainly lend you to siding with their circumstance, and the circumstances where a 14 year old having a 65 year olds baby cannot (God forbid) be the norm. But pro-lifers are not so staunch about the practice of abortion that it should be abolished- but monitored carefully. The government likes to have its hand in everything else and dole out my money to the clinics that perform these- why shouldn't these be reported from a logistical standpoint to justify where funds are being spent. If the abortions are being performed (which is more money than any of us would care to imagine) for women who were careless of using protection effectively then why should my hard earned tax dollars be wasted for a cause I definitely do not support but abhor and for which my religious beliefs are not wholly tolerant of? But I digress, because here again, abortion should only ever be performed for those who are truly in need of its services (though, I'll admit, even then I believe wholeheartedly that the babies should still be had. There are so many people who would willingly adopt them (I myself would consider it the highest privilege to have a Down's Syndrome or otherwise incapacitated child in my home - this stems from my religious beliefs and my love for God's children/my brothers/sisters) and the people who are having these abortions performed (the 14 year old girl for example)- who is to say that when they are older and their reasoning capabilities have matured that they won't look back on having an abortion as the worst action they would've taken in their lives. Why not encourage them to err on the side of bringing the life into this world and giving it into a loving and welcoming home? Either way they have been forced into an adult situation that they are certainly not prepared to be able to handle mentally- but why make it worse putting them in a situation where they'd have to live with it for the rest of their lives wishing they could go back and do the baby justice. I've read so many articles where women who felt they were so pro-choice and open thinkers would have an abortion then their lives spiraled way down from there as faced with the atrocious realness of it they could not handle it. And guess what- the people who encouraged them to do it and the people who performed the abortion....they've moved on with their lives and do not have to live with it as the woman does. The daily memory is sheer torture for the rest of their lives. I don't see how anyone wins. Go check out the lady from Roe v. Wade and see how she feels about her abortion now.

As far as voting to put someone into office who is adamantly and actively a stalwart supporter of the worst (i.e.unnecessary) forms of abortion - if you vote for this person who puts laws into practice that kill innocent babies in the worst way- then yes, I do believe that you will be held to some accountability for it at the Last Day. I certainly do not want to face the people who were murdered so brutally in the womb and tell them why I supported the practice that denied them the life that I was privileged to have. WE are responsible for each other and for making this world a better place.

Generally, when any person is involved in politics and running for office the issue of abortion would not be forefront - but in Obama's case it is. It is because he is as left as you can get with it- there is no one (who is in this realm of politics- so known) who takes a more extreme and ugly stance as Obama does. There's a reason that McCain and Palin encourage the voters to look at Obama's voting record. Why else would they? it's the clearest indicator of what kind o President that Obama would be. Obama has merely voted present in the issues out there, but in this issue he has thrown his force behind it and made promises to all of the groups that he would push their agenda's full force. This is the ONLY issue that he has done that with- so I must assume then that he will continue with his agenda once in office. Have Obama's supporters looked at his background of either politics or personal life? Do they know how he got into office in the first place- by knocking out the other candidates with disgusting tactics? He has never earned the right to any office he's held- there's legitimate proof of it. If you want to know what Obama's about and what the country is going to be like- check his voting record. Abortion is TOP on the list. There is no reason for me to believe he will not actively push this issue until it passes and forces me and mine to comply with it. Look at what's happening now- if it were up to me- I'd be holding the people responsible for taking out ridiculous loans responsible and NOT letting the government tap into my hard earned paycheck to bail them out for free. It's all about personal responsibility and the exorbitant lack of it in today's society.

Look at the bill's that Obama is claiming withheld clauses for the mother's health. You will NOT find that what he's backpedaling now is the truth. For example, Obama's defense to why opposed a bill that sought to make it illegal to let a child die that was born in a botched abortion in the Illinois legistlation (and this is verbatim from Obama's own book...Audacity of Hope (gag)):

"It mandated lifesaving measures for premature babies (the bill didn't mention that such measures were already the law)-but also extended "personhood' to pre-viable fetuses, thereby effectively overturning Roe v. Wade".

This is not true b/c such measures were NOT already the law in Illinois - according to the Dept. of Health. Not even Barbara Boxer or Pelosi would support letting a child born alive blatantly die (which is funny to me since they've just tried to murder it anyway).

Here's another fun quote from Obama (actually an extension of what you talked about):

"...whenever we define a pre-viable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or other elements in the constitnution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided toa -- a child, a nine-month old- child that was delivered to term. That determination, then, esentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it --it would essentially bar abortions, b/c the equal protedction clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an antiabortion statute. For that purpose, I think it would probably be found unconstitutional."

What a lovely character huh? So he's saying my child wasn't really a child til he was like 9 months old, and thank goodness he wasn't premature b/c then he wouldn't have been a real child either. So I do take Obama at his word. I do believe he'll do his best to pass into law that which will force the rest of us to comply or be found in contempt. How warped is that? It's a slippery slope and soon we'll be entertaining the professors whou'd like to claim that a child isn't a child until they can independently support themselves, so we can just kill them at a whim, well, whenever. That would negate many many many a court ruling out there that has protected abused and murdered children. Warped, warped, warped- sick and wrong. Even if it was just about partial birth abortion- it is the most unnecessary procedure- top that with the fact that its intentions are to kill someone and wow, what utter abomination that has gotta be to God and the poor babies who are tortured through the process. Do you know what happens in that process?

Partial-birth abortion is exactly what the term infers. The baby is partially born before its abortionist-induced termination.

This Dilation and Extraction procedure is called D&X, Intact D&X, and Intrauterine cranial decompression. The public commonly uses the term PBA and Partial-birth Abortions.

The procedure is usually performed during the last trimester of gestation up to the end of the ninth month. The woman's cervix is dilated, and the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps. Then he proceeds to pull the baby into the birth canal. The abortionist then delivers the baby's body, feet first, all but the baby's head. The abortionist inserts a sharp object into the back of the baby's head, removes it, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains are sucked out. The head of the baby collapses at this point and allows the aborted baby to be delivered lifelessly.

Is this graphic, grotesque? Yes, it is! Is it painful for the baby? Yes it is! It is not an embryo or fetus, but is a baby who is a life. Just as a mother who has miscarried a wanted child says she "lost the baby."

Life begins at conception. During pregnancy, a baby is growing and in development until its day of birth, just as a birthed child is continually growing and developing until it reaches adulthood. From the beginning it has a heart and a heartbeat. All the parts are there and are being developed over a few short months until his/her birthday.

Speaking before the Planned Parenthood Action Fun on July 17, 2007, Obama said, "The FIRST thing I'd do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act."

The bill would effectively cancel ever state, federal, and local regulation of abortion, no matter how modest or reasonable. It would even , according to the National Organization of Women, abolish all state restrictions on government funding for abortions. If Obama becomes president and lives up to this promise, then everyone who pays income tax will be paying an abortionist to perform an abortion- talk about being a baby-killer yourself. In promising to sign this bill, Obama is promising to abolish state laws that protect dorctors and nurses from losing their jobs if they refuse to participate in abortions. he is promising to abolish requirements for parental notification and informed consent for mothers who consider the procedure. Some pro-life groups argue that, as written, the Freedom of choice Act would abolish even the requirement that only licensed physicians perform abortions.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 says, "The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." God forms us and knows us before we are born. Life is precious to God as Psalm 127:3 tells us "Sons are a heritage from the LORD, children a reward from him." And God has a divine plan for each and every life.

Babies, even developing babies, can and do feel. Sonograms have shown babies sucking their thumbs; they move around, and yes even kick at times. One baby's excitement is described in the Bible as his mother Elisabeth says, "…the baby in my womb leaped for joy" at hearing good news (Luke 1:44).

Abortion, as it occurs so needlessly today for incoinvenient, selfish, and despicable reasons, is an abomination. By supporting those who fight for its existence we are supporting the greatest sin of all.

I understand we may still part ways in thinking regarding this issue when it comes to the gravity that this issue demands- but I ultimately would like to know if you think God supports abortion. Does God support killing the children he sends to us? Would God support us being part of the force that keeps it going? Do you think God would provide inspiration to lead our great country with his ultimate commandment going by the wayside by one who definitely does not cherish human life but revels in the semantics and rhetoric of it all? Do you think God is in favor of Obama? No other issue demands the attention or justice that this one does b/c it breaks God's createst commandment. Do you think God is in favor of Obama? The answer should serve as a guide in voting into office one who will be looked to as an example by all.

Though i detest Sean Penn I love what he said referring to Obama (it's hard to follow but very tell tale!):

"I hope that he will understand if he is the nominee the degree of disillusionment that will happen if he doesn't become a greater man than he will ever be."

I get a kick outta it every time I read it. How sad it's going to be when el presidente Obama is very obviously proven to be not "The One".

P.S. Terra don't forget to call me back- we've got plans to finalize. :)

abby232000 said...
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Liz said...

Wow, now I'm feeding my own anger- I was under the impression we'd gotten to a level of some understanding only apparently you thought that understanding was that you're always right and no one should question your warped delusions? You've got too many issues for me to deal with Abby. I'm talking abortion here- you're all out in your own hemisphere here.

Sorry you lost what little respect that you claim you found for me- good thing for me your opinion matters, well, not at all. I don't feel the way I do or speak the truth about where the world is heading because it's fun - it's because I'm deathly afraid to send my poor child out into the world with loonies like you running around making excuses for murdering babies

You're right again, I guess I can't help myself when it comes to an issue that is definitely more important than you or I. This isn't about me proving myself to you in any way shape or form, and for you to bring in religion and act like I'm trying to convert you....that's just desperate. You're the one who started on with the scriptural quotes, so don't act like I introduced religion into this issue (though how could I not bring it in when it is what this issue is all about). You're the one who started this whole back and forth in the first place trying to push your liberal agenda that I'm just not open enough to understand how the world really works like all the free thinking, baby killing libs out there. The truth sucks from my point of view and I don't have to sugar coat it for anyone in return. I was on a friend's blog talking to her, not trying to prove a point to anyone who may think I'm hardhearted or unfeeling. Terra certainly knows me better than you and what my original intentions were, so again, I make no apologies for not appealing to the masses here. I should never have responded to your original baiting- my husband has warned me many times by now how people like you think and why it is so futile to carry on rationally with an irrational person. I thought I could prove him wrong, but alas, he is usually wiser than myself and has proven it hereagain.

Since you were kind enough to break down my last posting point by point in hopes to get the last word in about how delusional or irrational I am being- I am providing perhaps a last retort regarding your grossly tainted assumptions:

1. The fact that I didn't go through your last posting piece by piece to confirm every minute detail doesn't speak that I was already thinking ahead to what i had to say, I wasn't even planning on responding but got to thinking about it more and figured I'd at least supply you with the proper ammunition b/c you were misquoting left and right after you'd accused me of being unable to supply facts or background to what I was saying - topping it off with the fact that we were no longer what we had started talking about in the first place- . I'm not writing a history report here with a bibliography page- I was working on a response as I had time to (between taking care of a child and fulfilling many many various other daily duties) so I really don't care to apologize for mixing up trite unimportant details- I've actually got more important things to worry about than that. (I was actually mixing stories I'd recently heard on a girl whose stepfather had impregnated her through rape with your story- thus I mis-wrote mixing situations, not making them up as I went along). But I can see why doing something like that might be seen to infuriate someone like you.

2. Obama's quote here was a response to the scenario where a nurse found out that when a baby was born due to a botched abortion (3rd trimester I believe, not younger than 24 weeks and had the capability of surviving or at least should have had the medical attention a living being is inherently, constitutionally alotts us). The nurse went about trying to find out if it was legal to let a living breathing human being die like that - after it had been born. Obama uses previable inappropriately here then as he entertains the notion that if fetuses that were intended to be murdered through abortion (in this case inducing labor in the hopes that the contractions would be strong enough to kill the baby before it made it out of the birth canal) then they should not be afforded the same rights as say....a 9-month old or a baby who'd reached full term (40 full weeks, not less than 24 in these circumstances) - his exact words. But regardless of when the baby is born- if it is born ALIVE then it is privledged to the same constitutional rights that you and I enjoy- to receive medical treatment to sustain its life. So your argument here doesn't fly either way. (P.S. you should read the news more often because as of late there have been several babies who've survied being born earlier than 24 weeks.)

3. Are the cells alive? Can they multiply and divide? If so, then that constitutes life. I don't need some baby murdering idiots to try and come up with a different definition than that. If you kill something before it has the time to develop FULLY that doesn't mean that it was any less than if it had developed FULLY. "From the beginning" does not state from the first day the egg was implanted- it is referring to the beginning of the process. You're really discounting dividing cells- they are the same cells that created you and I, give them a little credit. From the beginning there is LIFE- no matter how you'd like to phrase it to ease your conscience, it is LIFE. When you plant a seed into the earth you expect it to grow with care and it does- it is a living organism with the propensity to accomplish much. Those cells have created the greatest humans in history, so I wouldn't refer to them with such callous disregard.

4. You're welcome for the graphic details. If more people understood how partial birth abortion worked then perhaps it would be abolished sooner rather than later. The fact that you weren't concerned about it made me think that you didn't understand what it implied fully - now I understand that it amounts to about the same as mere cells do in your book. Can you supply a reason for a woman ever getting a partial birth abortion. It doesn't matter how small of a percentage of people get these- it's never an appropriate method to use...ever. There should be no percentage of it. The fact that it is a method is abhorrent and should be abolished, case closed.

Did you happen to read what ALL of the repurcussions of the Freedom of Choice Act entails or are you just trying to find the seemingly less harmful parts of the bill to respond to? Besides, where is the definition of viable that we are working off of now, because there are apparently several definitions of it that Obama and you are going off of, I want to be sure I'm on the same page. And where is the definition that Obama will use to determine what is considered endangering a woman's life or health (mental health?)- because pregnancy in general is downright hazardous to your body- if C-Sections weren't available today my pregnancy would've terminated my life if not also the life of my child...

5. When has anyone ever pretended that abstinence would work? Last time I checked, anytime abstinence was preached in school it came with a lecture on how to use who have you been talking to that has tried to solve the problem of unwanted pregnancy with abstinence? People are just too lazy, stupid or both to comply with that for the sake of babies (hereagain, obvioulsy not counting those who have been abused or are really in danger for their life if the pregnancy continues). I'm still missing the point with what Obama is promising to do as being novel or praiseworthy. last time I checked, providing more education or contraception services hasn't worked because it's been done to death for at least the past 20-30 years. I fail, yet again, to pick on any significant points you are trying to relay here. The fact that Obama wants to reduce the number of abortions doesn't belie the fact that he is total and absolute support of them. What 1% am I harping on here, I'm confused about that last part. Abortion is abortion is abortion. Wow.

6. When did I ever say that Pro-lifers supported a woman's choice? I distinctly said that pro-lifers do not deny that the need for abortion exists in today's society on a very careful basis (relating to issues such as incest, rape, detrimental health to the mother). I did say that I, myself, me- believe that women should still have the babies (the ones whose lives are not in peril) as their lives have already been traumatized (if they were raped) and are forced to deal with the most heinous side of life- but why should an innocent baby suffer for what happened. I said I've read many a story of women who've had abortions only to turn around and wish they could take it all back- that feel their lives are no longer worth living after the fact b/c during they'd been convinced by everyone that it was the best thing to do. That's my personal belief that I tacked on there for my own benefit. I spoke very clearly before it saying that you'll be hard pressed to find a pro-lifer who is 100% against abortion b/c they realize that evil and valid health reasons to do so exists in the world and that those who are raped and/or will die if they do not receive an abortion must be cared for as well.

So please clarify to me how I have contradicted myself here, b/c hereagain, I confused as to what you are trying to imply. When did I say I was open minded regarding this issue? I think I have pretty firmly stated my side and that I do not deviate from it.

I'm interested to find out though - who is going to educate women on their many options out there? Planned Parenthood? NARAL? The First Choice Act? Does Obama have a detailed planned laid out that is going to blow all other plans heretofore out of the water? I mean, I know he is 'The One' and all, so I figure there must be one.

The fact that abortion has always taken place in society doesn't mean anything- that is completely meaningless. Last time I checked the laws didn't prevent women from having an abortion- where are you comign from? If women are going to some psycho freak to have their abortion performed then...why? Where do these stats come from that you're claiming the World Health Organization is speaking of? Just because people will keep doing them does not mean we should make them legal and further tear away the seams of a decent society. Just as making marriages legal for gays- they tear away at the decent things that society has going for it and ruin the way of life that was establised by this country's founders - well, God. Tell me, where will you want to live when there are no morals left to be found in the country? According to the scriptures that means it's the end of days. Heaven forbid I bring religion into this discussion, but that is where this all stems from.

You keep talking about how we need to provide more contraception, education, and adoption services to the masses (side note, McCain is proposing that he will work on making adoptions in the U.S. easier) - when have these never been available to the masses and how exactly can we push them anymore than we have been? Schools have been infiltrated with sex ed and contraceptives in the bathrooms as many other public buildings... Everyone knows the choices that are available. Growing up I didn't know a teenage boy who didn't have a condom in his wallet or on the ready from someone else... If an adult is not completely educated on their choices well then we've really got some serious problems.

We need to get people teaching morals and personal responsibility- can't be in the schools where these kids are most susceptible b/c it'd be absolute blasphemy for the libs. to bring that kind of thing into schools nowadays.

Abby- it is not up to you to accuse or judge me of judging who will be judged in the last days. I know what God's plan is for us and that we are responsible to not let these horrible things happen on our own doorstep. We are a God-fearing country and that is how we've survived so successfully for so long. Making a positive change to prevent society of becoming anymore warped or dangerous for our youth and future youth (my son's future included) requires eradicating things such as abortion from society. If that constitutes 'judging' in your book then I can definitely live with that. If we didn't 'judge' the criminals of society and remove them from imposing seroius harm upon us and our society then we'd have reached the pathway to oblivion long ago.

Besides I happen to know who God is going to be giving their just dues to in the last days....because He has made it very clear to us what will happen and why. It it is up for us to prolong the wasteland of society for as long as possible. WE have the responsibility to future generations to keep America out of the pooper for as long as possible.

When have I EVER claimed that I was better than anyone else??!! You keep going on and on about me judging. What am I judging? I am stating the obvious. People who violate God's commandments in using their free agency will have to own up to it in the end. We all will have to atone to others for wrongs that we've done. People who murder, however, will have much more severe repurcussions. It breaks God's first and greatest commandment. Why do you think He gave them to us?

Last I checked the Mormon church's doctrine does not vary from what other religions tout regarding what I've said here, so let's not bring your disbelief of Mormon fables into it either. I could care less what religion people practice as long as their practices don't pose a threat to society. I've never cited Mormon doctrine to validate anything that I've said here so why are you even bringing that into it?

And when did I EVER call your holiness into question? I call your mental capabilities into question, sure, but I have not called your 'holiness' into question. As long as you're not out killing babies or planning to harm society detrimentally in some way then I could really truly care less what your religious beliefs or practices, or even the lack thereof are. I have MANY friends from different denominations so let's not make that an issue shall we? Why would I consider YOU a lost soul? Why would I pray for you specifically? I have my own things to worry and pray about without bringing you into the mix. I pray that we can find a way to get the evils out of society and I pray that I can become less caustic in regards to how I attempt to participate in their eradication and I pray that people will come to their senses and quit killing God's children so callously- but past that you can sleep well at night knowing you're not in my prayers.

BTW, congrats on your upcoming nuptuals. I would say something to the effect of how great marriage is, but coming from me I'm sure you'd discount it and seek to do the opposite of what I'd recommend so I'll just say congrats.


P.S. I'll admit to getting a kick out of this give and take (not from an anger standpoint) but b/c it's helping me to understand where you're coming from to more develop where I'm coming from.